Experiment to Optimize: Balancing Risk and Growth with Gerda Vogt-Thomas

Welcome to No Hacks – the podcast where experimenters and optimizers share their secrets about CRO, business experiments, and balancing life! In this episode, we sit down with Gerda Vogt-Thomas, co-founder of a CRO agency called Koalatative. Gerda shares her insights on managing risk, growth, and using experimentation to optimize both business and life.

Gerda starts by sharing her surprising journey into skiing, moving from a passionate dislike to a newfound love, which she compares to her career in CRO. Just as she learned to tackle steep slopes, she talks about how experimentation in business is often an uphill journey but one worth taking. Her mantra? Perfect isn’t necessary; progress is. This mindset shift is essential for anyone looking to grow personally or professionally while managing risk thoughtfully.

Throughout the episode, Gerda emphasizes the importance of testing ideas in real-world conditions. She discusses the pitfalls of perfectionism, particularly for entrepreneurs who obsess over perfecting a product before ever seeking customer feedback. Her advice is clear: don’t let the fear of imperfection keep you from launching. Testing and iterating are not only practical strategies for CRO but also essential life skills.

In a fascinating deep dive, Gerda talks about human biases and the impact of belief systems, suggesting that many of us are held back by unexamined thoughts and assumptions. By confronting these beliefs, she argues, we can make better decisions and achieve greater outcomes, both in business and in life. For those new to CRO, she also breaks down the essentials of experimentation, encouraging small steps and incremental testing, especially when working with limited data.

The episode wraps up with a fun rapid-fire segment, where Gerda shares her thoughts on balancing high-energy activities with calm routines to find a truly balanced life. From skiing to needlepoint, she believes variety and seasonality keep life engaging. Tune in for an insightful episode filled with practical advice, personal stories, and a fresh perspective on embracing experimentation as a path to growth and fulfillment.

00:00 Welcome to No Hacks 
01:30 Skiing Adventures and Life Lessons
03:42 Risk Management and Experimentation
05:47 Human Biases and Risk Assessment
07:14 The Importance of Experimentation in Business
10:12 Launching Products and Overcoming Fear
14:32 Balancing Gut Feel and Data in Business
17:39 Rapid Fire Questions
19:22 Applying CRO Principles to Personal Growth
24:10 Living a Balanced Life in a Digital World
26:54 Career Advice for Aspiring CRO Professionals

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Sani: Welcome to no hacks. If you're new to the podcast, this is the place where experimenters and optimizers talk about experimentation and optimization, both at work and in real life situations. This episode is about managing risk growth and using experimentation to optimize your life. Today's guest is a two time no hack co founder of a CRO agency called qualitative.

She's on a mission to fix the world one website at a time, prioritizing real solutions over shady marketing tactics. Gerda Vogt-Thomas, welcome back. To the podcast.

[00:00:29] Gerda: Thank you for having me.

[00:00:31] Sani: We talked in May, I think, or June, something like that, like before the summer and the second we ended that episode, we agreed to do another one and I'm glad you are back and we are talking again. Let's start by talking about skiing. You're from a flat country. You're not in a flat country anymore. Like, was it always meant to be, or was it different?

[00:00:54] Gerda: Uh, no, it came as quite a shock, actually, because I did used to hate Cross country skiing with a fiery passion because they like made us do it for PE at school and and then I end up living in BC where you know, it's I don't know the most mountainous region in the world almost and Everybody is doing downhill skiing and you just see these like two year olds on the mountain doing it with no trouble while you're like falling down and then uh You Yeah, I went on my first ski trip, and um, I was taken to the most easiest run or trail or whatever, and it looked to me like it was like a 90 degree angle, and I cried a lot, because, um.

It was so hard and I was reconsidering my entire life of how I got to the point And I thought I was going to die and then I didn't die and I tried again And got better gear and eventually started loving it. So

[00:02:03] Sani: all about the gear you're saying like,

[00:02:05] Gerda: Uh, no, it was definitely a mental aspect too and just getting used to the altitude and the height and and all of

[00:02:12] Sani: Right. Hey, keep trying kids. If you're watching, keep trying, like it'll, it'll make sense. Eventually it might make sense eventually.

[00:02:21] Gerda: I mean, that's kind of like, um, a general life thing and a CRO thing, I guess the mindset is, um, you know, you're, you're going to suck at anything you do for the first time. So you have to like, give it an honest try at least.

[00:02:36] Sani: We should end the episode right here and there that that's the best quote we have.

[00:02:40] Gerda: You don't 

[00:02:40] Sani: But, you know, a mind blowing thing for me who grew up in Yugoslavia, Serbia, like you had skiing in school.

[00:02:47] Gerda: How they set up the lessons also it's so random they like make you do it in the middle of the day like between math and english, 

[00:02:54] Sani: I did not go to that school. We're talking about risk management. We're talking about growth and specifically risk management through running small experiments, work life, wherever, like CRO really, especially starting with CRO, like you need to start small, I think you can't just go and let's just test a completely new website or a new template or redesign.

Like you can, but you'll fuck up badly. So how do you use experimentation to a number of mitigate risks in business? Is that a tool? That should be used for that or, or is there something else?

[00:03:28] Gerda: Yeah, well, my saying has always been that CRO to me is common sense plus context. So the context part is always, like, super important to evaluate, like, where you are with your business because, you know, on one hand, Yeah, you don't want to overextend yourself, but at the same time, if you're a small company, a startup, and you don't have volume to work with, you shouldn't do small experiments, right?

Like you should take bigger swings with your entire marketing and branding and whatever, because you're just not able to be, you're not going to be able to measure some kind of small change you make on the website, right? So there's no point in investing in a testing tool and developer and all these things.

When you should maybe actually be focusing on creating entire new landing pages or, or whatever. Right. But, uh, I guess the context for doing these smaller experiments is in my mind, more for companies that have already proven themselves, at least like in terms of revenue, product market fit, and they kind of like need to scale up, right.

So that that's where that comes in for

[00:04:37] Sani: So they have a general idea of what the direction should be, but you know, maybe they need to touch the wheel a little bit, steer it left or right, just to, to, to correct.

[00:04:46] Gerda: Yeah, I think at some point, um, for businesses, the experimentation, like a lot of people are realizing that now it's almost becomes like a non negotiable at some point is it's like, that is the main way to scale, to just try new things and measure them.

[00:05:01] Sani: One of the things you told me is that humans are not naturally good at assessing risks and breaking them down into smaller manageable experiments, you know, to help make smarter choices at work in life. Why is that? why are people not good at assessing risks?

[00:05:16] Gerda: Oh, I thought about that a lot yesterday and I put your questions into chat GPT to, to see what it says.

[00:05:22] Sani: That's the way it's supposed to be done. It's 2024. No shame in that.

[00:05:26] Gerda: and yeah, I mean, it's interesting, like the thing it spit out was, Oh, just because humans have all these biases. Right. And I mean, you know, on a general level, that's kind of true. But what is the underlying problem to me that I've realized is that, um, it's kind of like your brain is running on some type of software.

And. You have this belief system about yourself and the world, and a lot of people never like even questioned that, but the reality is that that software is sort of like programmed into you by past experiences in early life authority figures. And at any time you can kind of decide to assess that belief system and decide if that's useful for you anymore, or you need to change that and believe something else.

[00:06:15] Sani: But can we like, can people

[00:06:17] Gerda: Of course.

[00:06:19] Sani: We're not talking about chat, chat, GPT, like program with belief system. We're talking about humans now for

[00:06:23] Gerda: Yeah, because,

[00:06:24] Sani: want to be clear about that.

[00:06:26] Gerda: yeah, totally. I think it was Einstein who said that, like, the most important decision of your life is to figure out if you live in a hostile or a friendly universe, and that will determine the outcome of your life, right? Because, like, what you believe becomes the truth for you. So, and like, I, unfortunately, many people don't even get to that point of understanding what it is that they believe is possible for themselves.

[00:06:51] Sani: This is getting deep. This episode is getting deep, but I like it. I I'll approve it. And I like it. I think you need to have that something that pushes you into wanting to know what kind of environment in, in to start thinking. And then it's probably not as difficult, but just, you know, autopiloting through life.

It's easy these days, it's easy to just let go and not think about it.

[00:07:12] Gerda: Yeah. I think sort of like the unfortunate thing is that for most of us, it has to get really bad. Like your life has to get to a point where you just can't take it any second of it anymore. So you want to change something, right? And then, uh, and then you start experimenting with new things, right?

[00:07:31] Sani: Funny story. I was talking about starting a different podcast, like a completely different podcast with a friend here locally. And the name, the work title we have is not bad enough. It's exactly about situations in life when it's not great. You think it should be better, but like, yeah, I'm alive.

I got food. Like I have a shelter. So I think that not bad enough thing is the worst thing that can happen to a person long term at

[00:07:56] Gerda: Yeah, but that also goes back to like that probably you have some sort of deep rooted belief that Oh, I don't I don't even deserve any better or something like

[00:08:04] Sani: Oh, you're from Eastern Europe, just like me, right?

[00:08:07] Gerda: course we all have that instilled into us

[00:08:11] Sani: Yeah. How could I forget? I mean, uh, jokes aside. Yeah, that's true. There's always, even if it's like subconscious, almost, there's always something that's, that's making you believe that, that, I think that's why it's difficult to start thinking about why am I doing this? Why am I okay with this situation? And most people don't.

[00:08:32] Gerda: I don't know. It's like easy to generalize and it's also kind of like you're projecting of what you see it with it

[00:08:38] Sani: generalize.

[00:08:39] Gerda: Yeah, it's like what you see within your own sort of circles and whatever but I think You know, if you train yourself to notice more of the positive stuff, then you will see more of that too.

Right. And then for me, it's like, since 2020, you know, since all of our lives, like changed so much, like I've seen more and more people come out of that autopilot and, um, become more conscious in a way, I guess. And like, maybe to, like, divert the conversation back to business or whatever. Uh, I was watching a lot of Dragon's Den last year.

Um, which is like the Canadian Shark Tank, basically, right? And, um, you know, I was aware of the concept and I knew companies that came out of that show, but I never really binged it. So I did binge it for a while. And the most surprising thing to me was how many people kind of build companies and products because they're so in love with their own idea and they spend like.

Insane resources. Like people will take out loans on their house to fund some kind of like product development process. And then they've never put it in front of a customer or like gathered information about it. And then the investors are like, okay, so how many of these have you sold though? Like, it's cool that you've been working on it for two years.

And they're like, uh, zero because I'm still thinking about it and whatever. Yeah. And it's like, you know, Okay, but then like, is it really about the product or is it you that has some sort of emotional issue and fear of showing up that you're afraid to fail and afraid to like put it in front of other people, right?

[00:10:16] Sani: Let's start a petition to get you on Dragon's Den as a judge or a dragon or whatever

[00:10:20] Gerda: Oh, I would love that. I would love to just Ah, just look deep into their souls, just ask them, what is really bothering you? Let's leave the product aside. Like, what is your problem? Uh,

never like really go there, but like, like they should. Yeah. It's like, you don't need a business coach. You need a therapist.

[00:10:40] Sani: that's the same thing. Uh, it could be, but yeah, that's, it's an interesting example of dragons that I did watch shark tank several years ago, kind of binged it for a short while. And then you get sick of it. Like it's the same thing. Like you, you can't just, you can't spend 10 years watching shark tank. If you are.

Watch shark week or something like just drop that and watch something else. But basically, uh, that's a very good, that's a very good example. Like people fall in love with something that they think is. If I want it, everybody will want it. And like, let's not get into the root of that problem and ego and whatever, but risk that there's no risk management there.

There's no, there's no attempts to mitigate risks. So. Let's say you're a business coach now therapist, whatever There's somebody who has an idea that they love and they spend like five years building it and a lot of money How do you talk to that person? they do it

[00:11:40] Gerda: Uh, that's so tough. Like that's so tough. I even see it within my own circle. So you have people like trying to start businesses and they, they kind of like have this, again, belief that it needs to be so perfect before launching it. And then, uh, and then they just never get around to like asking another human being that is a target customer.

Of like what they, if they would even buy it or like test it or anything like that. And then it kind of just fizzles out in a way. Right. But it's like, at some point, if, yeah, you've been working on something for five years and you put so much personal resource into it, like you have to start proving ROI or you like, go try to sell one of the thing that you're making.

Like, that is even more proof than, uh, than just, you know, working by yourself.

[00:12:32] Sani: , my business partner said something recently, if we launch and everybody says it's perfect We fucked up Like we, we waited for way too long and, and this is really, especially, and we taught you, we talked yesterday about building with AI and maybe we will today as well.

Like, don't wait, just launch it in a week. It can look ugly if it does that one thing that nothing else does. That's better than launching two months from now. And there's five competitors. 

[00:12:58] Gerda: Yeah, it's like there too, it's like good to go through that, uh, mental exercise even because like, you know, you can feel that you're afraid to launch something and then you can ask yourself, okay, why am I afraid? I'm afraid that people will point and laugh and say that I'm an idiot for launching something like this.

And it's like, okay, so what does it matter? Does it

[00:13:16] Sani: That's a legitimate fear. That's it's okay,

[00:13:19] Gerda: Mm hmm. And it happens to everyone too and it's like, you know, whenever you want to create something There is this built in part of people that are not going to like it either way, so it doesn't matter

[00:13:30] Sani: But you know what? What else is built in? There's going to be people who like it and who tell you that and you don't expect to hear it. So, you know, just roll the dice, flip a coin, like whatever, just do it. But yeah, dragons then I like that a therapy show. How do you balance going with the gut feel versus going with the data versus knowing which data to collect?

How does that work in your life?

[00:13:54] Gerda: my god, this is such a Such a tough topic, especially for people that are, that own their own businesses. I think like us, plus experimenting, because I like struggle with that so much because when you do experiments for someone else's company, We're kind of taught that you shouldn't rely on your gut feel at all.

I mean, everything's based on data and all that. And then when you start your own business, you don't have any data. All you have is a gut feeling and you have to be connected to yourself to kind of like follow different paths or understand which people to work with and all that. So it's, it's really tough.

Like, I don't even know if I have something super useful to say about that. I think it's more, again, like. Getting to know yourself and making sure your nervous system is balanced and soft too, so you can even hear your own intuition and kind of like understand that a lot of the, um, I guess advice that people try to give you is often just projection of their own limited experience and it may not even apply to you.

And like, you know, the whole thing of like, don't take advice from people that whose lives you don't want and that kind of stuff. So.

[00:15:07] Sani: That's a good point. But, but do you think asking for opinion, advice, whatever it is, do you think it's a good thing to do? You have to be careful about that.

[00:15:18] Gerda: Uh, I think it can be definitely helpful. Um, but you should be careful of who you ask advice for. Right. And then at what stage, like, if you're in the ideation stage and like the pre launch and all that, I think. That's kind of like where you should just maybe experiment with shipping things quickly and like learning how to be consistent with yourself and delivering.

And then once you have launched something, then it's good to start gathering information and getting more ideas and opinions.

[00:15:52] Sani: I firmly believe you can launch a SaaS or a digital product in a week. Like you can from start from zero code to launch. You can do it in a week these days. ,

[00:16:00] Gerda: But I think you still need like some sort of underlying dev experience, right? Like 

[00:16:04] Sani: Yes, you do. Yes.

Yes. Yes. 

[00:16:06] Gerda: I can't do it. You

[00:16:07] Sani: You still do. You still do. But in a year, it's not going to be like that. I'm pretty sure. But what I want to say is if you can launch it in a week, just do it. Freaking launch it in a week and then get feedback later. Just be hurry up with the build stage and then you'll get feedback.

You'll iterate, you'll make it better. You'll, you'll do whatever, whatever needs to be done. But getting hung up in that stage where you're developing, I started and then somebody tells me, and then it's two more weeks. And then it's four more weeks, eight more weeks. And like, I'm never launching this.

That is the worst thing you can do today when everything can move fast and everyone else is moving fast.

[00:16:42] Gerda: Yeah, right now it's for sure. The arms race of AI, like everybody is trying to build something

[00:16:47] Sani: All those chat GPT wrappers that will just be wiped away when chat GPT learns how to do that same thing. Let's go to RapidFire. I have some questions that I think you will appreciate. You have 20 seconds to answer each one. First question. What is the most unnecessary CRO tool you have used? 

[00:17:02] Gerda: I think those tools that promise to do everything. 

they, have a hundred features in it and they promise to be your analytics, your testing tool,

[00:17:12] Sani: with you a hundred percent.

[00:17:13] Gerda: and, and there's a couple of them and they cost a lot and it's like not worth it in my

[00:17:20] Sani: Even Google wasn't trying to do everything with Google analytics and optimize it. Even they split it into a deck. I have a feeling they're a bigger company and have more resources to build it properly. So. Maybe, maybe that that's a good way. Okay. That's under 20. How can team dynamics make CRO more complex than it needs to be? 

[00:17:36] Gerda: I 

Think the reality is that just some people don't vibe with each other and we don't recognize that and, and that's kind of it.

[00:17:45] Sani: That's great. What's scarier running an AB test with no clear hypothesis or working at a haunted hotel. 

[00:17:51] Gerda: Uh, the A B test one for sure.

[00:17:53] Sani: what is your go to strategy for overcoming mental blocks? 

[00:17:57] Gerda: Balancing your nervous system. Um, there are so many tools like, I don't know, breathwork, meditation, going on a walk, basically just like stepping away from whatever you're doing, um, trying to ground yourself. I don't know, stand with your bare feet on the earth, if that's your thing, go walk around in nature, interact with an animal, something that like makes you feel relaxed and puts you in a flow state.

[00:18:25] Sani: Wonderful answer. The last one. What is one habit that has improved your personal productivity?

[00:18:30] Gerda: Just, uh, chilling out more. And, uh, not taking everything so personally. 

[00:18:35] Sani: Now, speaking of personal, let's talk about CRO principles apply to personal growth. Research, measurement, iteration, like all that stuff in your life, in your hobbies, in your skiing, whatever you want.

[00:18:49] Gerda: mean, right now we have an AP test going on in our house where we're testing different cat litters to see which one they like better. Like, I don't think normal people operate that way.

[00:19:00] Sani: you're saying CRO people are not normal people.

[00:19:03] Gerda: I mean, there's definitely something weird about all of us.

[00:19:06] Sani: Tell me about that test. I need to know like what, what exactly are you doing?

[00:19:10] Gerda: So, we moved house recently and, uh, And we're just testing out different, different locations and different types of letters to, to make sure that our cats like it. So, yeah.

[00:19:22] Sani: Let's talk about the importance of reflection and self awareness. You touched on that earlier in life in general. What's your. Way of doing this

[00:19:32] Gerda: Writing, I think, is a big one. This is a big one for me, like, um, I always loved writing and journaling and getting my thoughts out on my notepad or my notetap and kind of just reading that back. But even now, it's like, The chat GPG thing like so many people have told me they use it as a therapist, you know, because like Yeah, for sure and I was playing around it yesterday It's even like pretty cool to help you interpret your dreams and stuff.

I'm somebody that experiences really vivid Symbolic dreams and you can literally tell it to be like carl young and then come in and interpret them for you And it's like pretty insightful.

[00:20:14] Sani: I don't want to live in this world. I don't, I don't like this at all. I had my cousin. It's it's too far. Like it's bullshit. Like it's

[00:20:23] Gerda: I mean, it's dystopian, for sure. Like, 

[00:20:25] Sani: what I don't like about it is how fast the things are moving and what's crazy today is going to be normal tomorrow.

[00:20:34] Gerda: And I mean, there's also like this crazy evolutionary mismatch going on right now, because our brains are not developed to deal with this kind of stuff. And the information that we have, as I was reading about how the modern humans make like 35, 000 decisions per day, because the systems we need to interact with are so complex, but like the software, or the hardware that we're running on.

It's the same as like caveman times, right? When you had to make maybe 10 decisions a day. And now it's also like this chat, GPT and whatever. And I was listening to, um, you know, the diary of CEO podcast. And it was, um, he was interviewing the guy who, oh my God, I forget his name. He wrote the sapiens book.

Really interesting guy. And he was saying that there's basically going to be two different. Um, like human species now, because like with the Neuralink and all that kind of stuff, it's like, you know, if you take the Neuralink, your IQ is going to be like 5000 plus, and if I don't, then I'm going to be left behind, right?

Like we're going to be completely different humans.

[00:21:40] Sani: But what, what, when the battery runs out, like, do you plug in USB C cable into your like nose or no, I don't think we need that. I don't, I think like, this is something that I talked to Shiva. Just because you can do something, it doesn't mean it's a good idea to do it.

You can stick your fingers in the plug in the wall. Like you can do that. It might. I don't know. You might feel good. I don't do this at home, but when is it enough? Like, are we not happy with what we can do as humans? Like, is this not enough? We can fly, we can go to

[00:22:18] Gerda: it's like, it's the same as optimization, right? The work is never done. You always need to get better.

[00:22:25] Sani: Sure. But at some point, you're good enough at something. You move on and do something else. So maybe like we're really good at technology. Let's work on empathy. Let's work on feeding the hungry. Let's work on building homes for the homeless instead of putting chips into monkeys brains And then there's a human volunteer who says I want to be like that monkey.

[00:22:47] Gerda: Uh, yeah, yeah, I agree. It's a, it's, it's a weird time to be alive for sure.

[00:22:57] Sani: even with all the crazy things happening like This is not the worst. It's been like

[00:23:02] Gerda: For sure. I agree with that a hundred percent.

[00:23:05] Sani: But it's weird, if you just look at the news cycle and shit that happens and gets buried under the rug just two days later because something crazier happened

and like, 

[00:23:15] Gerda: This needs to be a separate podcast, I

[00:23:16] Sani: We're talking about CRO, uh, apply to personal growth. Somehow we ended up with monkeys with chips in their brains, but that's optimization.

Let's, let's talk about living a balanced life instead. This is the last topic I have today. And I prefer that. I think, I think with, with the way everything is moving around us, like people are online, nonstop plugged in, like working, thinking about work.

I know I am. And a lot of people I know are. What's the secret to living a balanced life? Is it skiing? Is it something else?

[00:23:47] Gerda: I don't know. If you find out, please let me know.

[00:23:50] Sani: I thought you knew

[00:23:51] Gerda: no, I actually struggle with being addicted to technology a lot. And I've like, Recently thought about like getting a flip phone because I have a really bad scrolling habit and I just like so much of my life at this point is online because of this work and like, because I moved across the world and you know, most of the people I interact with are online.

And it's really hard to like set boundaries it because like you want to communicate with people in different time zones as well. And that's. I can't really put my phone down at a specific hour because, you know, for all of these reasons, or that at least feels like that to me. So, yeah, I'm not really sure what to do about it.

I guess it's more again about those nervous system balancing exercises and forcing yourself to go live the outside life as well. But,

[00:24:45] Sani: You know, you don't need a flip phone. You need an app that slows down the scrolling speed by like a hundred times or something like that. So if you want to see the next reel, you have to work for it. Like you have to scroll a

[00:24:54] Gerda: Oh, okay. Yeah. Send me that app for sure.

[00:24:58] Sani: You do, uh, high energy and calm activities at the same time, like skiing and, and, you know, Cats. If cats are not relaxing, I don't know what is. , is that balance, , going from extreme to super calm, is that, like, a good way? But you don't know, you haven't found a balance, right?

Why am I even asking? Hmm.

[00:25:17] Gerda: it's uh, I, I tend to have like extreme hobbies, yeah, I'm either at, at home like doing needlepoint and puzzles or I'm out like doing extreme sports or something. But uh, I think it's also kind of, I've accepted the realization that humans are very seasonal and it's just, you know, I like doing different stuff.

Like I like variety. That's why I like the CRO project work as well is because I get to learn about so many different industries and work with different teams and then, you know, Once everyone feels like they got what they needed out of it, we can just all move on. There's no big like Oh, somebody needed to quit their job or something If you're a full time employee, which also comes with a lot of like emotional baggage and whatever It's like I don't know.

I just really enjoy this type of seasonality and and variety Oh, you're

[00:26:08] Sani: just entering the Ciro field, would you recommend them, uh, starting on their own, going for an agency? Like, what do you think is a good beginner career path?

[00:26:18] Gerda: Uh, definitely depends on your, like, personality and where you are in life and whatever. I think if, you know, again, take this with a grain of salt because I'm just speaking to my own experience. And, um, but I think that if you're young. And you just want to learn quickly and go quickly, just go to someone else's bigger agency because you don't have to worry about like getting projects.

You're just, you just get to see how different types of companies work and how different teams work and all that. And that can really like accelerate your growth in this career, I think. But if you're somebody that, um, appreciates more like a stable environment than like, you think it's too hectic for you, then go in house and learn about a specific product.

I think whatever you want to do is fine, but like probably starting out on your own is 

[00:27:06] Sani: It's not 

[00:27:06] Gerda: as good because like, you don't know what you don't know yet. Like you need some experience and to work with smarter people first.

[00:27:15] Sani: More experienced people. Maybe they're not smarter

[00:27:17] Gerda: maybe, maybe.

[00:27:18] Sani: We don't know that That's a good answer and be self aware and be balanced and all that stuff like that because it's really important and when you figure out how to be balanced Contact us both because we we need that Good. This was, this was really fun.

I enjoyed talking all of the, well, all the zero things, but all the non zero things as well, this was skiing and skiing in Estonia. What's the best way for people to get in touch with you?

[00:27:41] Gerda: Uh, LinkedIn just, uh, send me, send me a DM that maybe you saw this and, um, yeah.

[00:27:47] Sani: Awesome. One last question. I'll, I'll thank the audience first. And, uh, if they liked this episode, just share it with, with a friend, they will appreciate it as well. And one last question for you. If you could leave one word or phrase for yourself six months from now, what would that be?

[00:28:05] Gerda: Everything is always working out for you.