The Best Ideas Aren't the Loudest: Experimentation & Diversity with Lucia van den Brink

In this episode of No Hacks Podcast, Lucia van den Brink, co-founder of Increase Conversion Rate.com, takes us inside the world of advanced experimentation and shares why the best ideas aren’t always the loudest. With 800+ A/B tests under her belt and 25M+ visitors impacted, Lucia knows what it takes to elevate experimentation programs.

We explore her unique “Collaboration Bonus” philosophy, where every idea—whether from an intern or the CEO—adds value, fostering a culture of diverse insights that drive real results. Lucia shares her 1-2-4 Framework for brainstorming, designed to get the best ideas from everyone, introverts and extroverts alike. We also dive into scaling CRO without sacrificing quality, common pitfalls, and how to balance speed with meaningful outcomes.

If you’re ready to rethink how your team approaches experimentation, or simply looking for fresh ideas on driving innovation, this episode is packed with practical tips and inspiring insights. Tune in to discover how Lucia’s approach to inclusivity in testing can take your strategies to the next level.

00:00 Welcome to No Hacks Podcast
01:07 Meet Lucia van den Brink
01:50 The Role of Diversity in Experimentation
06:37 The One, Two, Four Framework
14:25 Implementing the Framework in Real Scenarios
18:22 Scaling Experimentation Programs with Diversity
20:18 The Importance of Humility in Optimization
20:50 Shiny New Idea Syndrome
22:01 Rapid Fire Questions
24:41 Overcoming Insecurity and Embracing Feedback
29:28 Applying Experimentation Principles to Real Life
31:31 Balancing Multiple Interests and Projects
35:50 Final Advice for Aspiring CRO Professionals

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Lucia: I just wish for everyone's idea, everyone's solutions to be out there because they're all valuable.

great ideas usually take a while to form, to get shape, and it can help to bring other people in.

another myth is that brainstorms are amazing because we feel amazing because it's social.

And then it's actually not. 

When I was writing a novel, I tried to gather a hundred rejections what it taught me was I can get used to receiving negative feedback and I'll survive. 

You don't have to say everything. But if you have really something to bring to the table, bring it because you are supposed to be there. 

just go there and try it it doesn't matter if it sucks. It doesn't matter if it doesn't work 



[00:00:47] Sani: Welcome to no hacks. If you're new to the podcast, this is the place where experimenters and optimizers talk about experimentation and optimization, both at work and in real life situations today, we're talking about diversity and how diversity can and should be what drives your experimentation and optimization efforts.

I think I have the right person for this topic. My guest is Lucia van den Brink. She is the founder of increaseconversionrate.Com. She has led over 800 A B tests and influenced more than 25 million visitors globally. She's also agency team of the year nominee at experimentation elite 24, CRO thought leadership award winner by chameleon in 23.

experimentation, culture, community award, 2023, and so on and so on. And then there's a lot of other things you do. Exactly. Lucia, welcome to the podcast. It's an honor and a pleasure to have you.

[00:01:36] Lucia: Yeah. Thanks so much for having me.

[00:01:39] Sani: You do a lot of things. We'll talk about the many, many other things to do. I'll just mention karate and literary novels, just as a teaser for everyone who is just tuning in right now and have no idea about what's coming. But let's talk about, collaboration bonus in diversity and why diversity not something you add on top of what you're doing, but it should be built in everything you're doing.

[00:02:01] Lucia: Yeah. So for me, it came very naturally. I'm a super geek. Like I started building my own website when I was 11 years old and, you know, rolled into this whole experimentation world and I, I just love it. But then after a while, uh, when I was working for experimentation programs that are like, you know, more than 200 tests a year, that kind of range, then you start to wonder like, okay, we are doing research, right?

Maybe sometimes we tweak here and there. We have the process, right? We involve all the people. Even the culture is kind of okay. Of course can always be better, but then what is next? What comes after that? How can you improve an experimentation program that runs hundreds of experiments, um, after that point?

So I was all the time looking for that. And, um, I think something just coincidentally happened, actually. So I was working at this news website and they also did CRO, which is interesting to most people, because how do you do CRO for a news

[00:03:04] Sani: I was going to ask, but now I'm not right.

[00:03:06] Lucia: I've been asked this question, um, but yeah, how you, you optimize for how many pages people read or if they read a full article or if they come back.

So those kind of things, um, which is also optimizing. So you can use a B testing. Uh, but back to the point we were talking about, we had this big experimentation program. it was already a couple of years ago and. experimentation programs with hundreds of A B tests were not so common then at all.

But then I noticed that there was a developer and the developer came to me and said, Hey, I work on the app. We are also testing on app. Um, And I don't know if I should load, the homepage, should I do it all at once? Should I build it like that? Or shall I do it like in two parts so that, it's quicker the first part and then, but the user will see the difference or in three parts.

And that's, that sounds like an A B test to me. So we run the test and it was a winner, uh, made, for the company itself an amazing amount of money, but it's not only about that, right? Because also the developer. Learned how to do this in the best way in this circumstance for this app. So it was great for the developer and me as a CRO specialist, at that place, I learned that this was something that I could have never come up myself with my brain, I wouldn't have gone there.

I needed this person. I needed this developer with his knowledge and, with the him building the stuff, to come up with this idea. And, seeing that made me realize Hey, I can only come up with ideas, that are like, I don't know that are yellow. So I come up with the yellow ideas, but I need someone to come up with, I'm going to split my post it.

I need someone to come up with the green ideas because I don't have this green mind. So, that's how I stumbled onto this whole, cool. diversity, team. And then I actually started to try to facilitate that more, right? Because as a CRO specialist in a company, sometimes, you're facilitating a process.

So I try to make as many people involved as possible. And, eventually I think last year or two years ago, I started even calculating. the win rate of me personally in an experimentation program and my ideas versus all the people together. so all the people that came up with ideas and guess what?

I wasn't the winner. It was all the people together. Okay. A lot of information. Yeah.

[00:05:39] Sani: But that's an interesting thing, especially, measuring the success of you as a person within a program. I haven't heard that before. I haven't, maybe people just don't talk about it, but that's a very interesting thing. And like you said, and I love the visuals there, by the way, the yellow and green,

[00:05:53] Lucia: It was just something that was on my desk. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:05:58] Sani: good. And, but that, that's what diversity is. Like diversity is different backgrounds, different ways to think about the same problem. And, uh, you know, this is going to be the dumbest reference ever. You know, the cartoon Care Bears, I saw it mentioned somewhere yesterday, you know, when they stand and shoot different rainbows at the enemy and they win in the end, well, that isn't that it,

[00:06:21] Lucia: you're right. Oh, this is a great image. I, yeah, I loved it.

[00:06:26] Sani: I saw an Estonian comedian talk about Care Bears. Last week in a podcast episode but yeah, I think this is the best possible reference. I'll make a LinkedIn post about this and see if people laugh. So that, that's what got you into this kind of mindset, but then you came up this last year before the convert at the conversion hotel with the one, two, four framework.

Explain that one, please.

[00:06:49] Lucia: Actually it's not, I cannot take full credit for it because it comes from, uh, from Scrum, from Agile Scrum. And there you have this concept called liberating structures. I don't have the book here. and that is where I found this method, but it applies very well to CRO.

So for me, it was just a task of bringing this thing that already exists into our CRO world. And what it does is,, It helps people that usually don't speak up or maybe that are bothered by hierarchy in some way. Maybe the intern that feels like, Oh, I don't know if I can say anything.

It helps those kinds of people as well as the extroverts. So it brings everything together. It's called one, two, four, all, like you said, the brainstorm format, and it starts with you as a person. So imagine we have a group, we're doing a workshop and we have a brainstorm together and what we, uh, we are brainstorming about maybe something for next quarter based on UX research. And then, the first step is to ask, everyone individually to come up with solutions or ideas or inspiration, uh, for, whatever problem it is that you're trying to solve.

Because if you immediately, leave it up to the group, you will have a group dynamic. And we're very social creatures, right? So what comes out of a traditional brainstorm with us sitting in a room and everyone just picking up, you know, whenever they want, is you're kind of bothered by that group dynamic because the group dynamic is there to be social and it's not there to find, you know, the best solution or the best truth.

So you kind of have to go against that. And if you don't, you will find the ideas that kind of overlap. So imagine, uh, Sani, you and me are in this brainstorm and then maybe we also have a developer, um, and then the ideas or the solutions that we agree upon are the ones that we all understand are the ones that maybe we all already have that are in our, our shared conscience, because a group also has like a shared conscience, but it's probably not going to be the idea that the developer comes up that we may be not fully understand while that can be a very valid, uh, solution to our problem.

So that's why we start with one person.

[00:09:09] Sani: And this is without talking to other people. You just do it all on your own, like headphones on, just do this thing and come back,

[00:09:16] Lucia: Yeah, go to your Miro board or whatever and have 10 minutes, uh, booking. com calls this a silent brainstorm. But then after that we build up. Let's say we have a group of eight people. Then I'll ask, everyone individually to talk to, you know, whoever is sitting next to them or whoever in the call, it doesn't matter.

It can be remote. And then to, present their best ideas to this other person. And what happens here is that, okay, you will get social, you will get a different dynamic, but you will also get a feedback loop. So that's great. And maybe together they already start improving on their idea because, great ideas usually take a while to form, to get shape, and it can help to bring other people in.

So then we are, we went from round two, and then we want to go to four people, which is maybe the size

[00:10:08] Sani: Just a question there. So once it is, it's, there's a group of two and I tell you my idea, you tell me your idea, or is it just go to the next person in a circle or

[00:10:16] Lucia: No. Oh yeah. It's just a like one on one. So two people talking to each other. Uh, so it's kind of safe. It's small. They both share their ideas and they kind of, um, maybe they'll also, that's, that can be an exercise like, Hey, share your best two ideas for example, and then they will. present it to each other and maybe already talk a little bit about it.

[00:10:39] Sani: Perfect. Yep. So next step is four.

[00:10:42] Lucia: Next step is four, but, um, it's four because the, the total size of the group is eight people. So you will have like two groups that consist of four people. Now, when you have four people, there are already a lot of ideas that they came up with individually. And it's great to have them talk to each other, um, to, Figure out the best ideas together again.

This will have this whole social thing in there what will happen is, uh, they will again start discussing their ideas, which idea is the best. Maybe someone will say, Hey, but what if you do this idea like this? And this is kind of how the idea immediately evolves. So that's great. Um, and they will come up with the three best ideas.

This will be social ideas, but they will already have multiple feedback loops. So they usually are quite good as well. Um, and then we will, uh, And then you can also ask them to present their best ideas to the other group and vice versa. So that's how you eventually also come up with you have the best ideas that the group selects.

But if later on you go back to, your mirror board or wherever people brainstorm individually, then you will see all the ideas are just right there. So it's the role of the facilitator to go back to see let's call them silent ideas, that maybe weren't picked, but maybe are still valid to put on a list and prioritize, for example.

So that's the way that you can mine ideas from a brainstorm, that are not, the most obvious idea or are not the most obvious ideas chosen. 

[00:12:20] Sani: I like the multi step ideation process. These are feedback loops along the way. It reminds me and I'll probably butcher the exact flow, but early day Walt Disney company, Disney company had, different rooms for ideas. So there was one room where everybody chose whatever they have.

And I think it was a room too, where it was the butcher room, basically, where you kill all of the ideas that are not viable. it's a bit different. It was what the forties, fifties, of course it was completely different. The idea was not to get diverse ideas. It was just to go as creative as possible, but multiple steps and ideation from one step to another, I think is what adds a lot of value that you would not have from, let's just have a four hour workshop and pick the best idea.

All in one go. It's just, it's not supposed to be like that. So there's one last step. All right. This is where you select.

[00:13:12] Lucia: All right, so this is where, you have two groups of four people and they present to each other so that both, that all the groups become aware of all the best ideas. Yeah,

[00:13:23] Sani: Like a debate club almost where in the end.

[00:13:26] Lucia: present more like presenting. they can discuss that's fine as well, but it can also just be like presented thing.

Because in the end you want everyone probably to be working on this and have the, have this conscience, Hey. These are great ideas.

[00:13:41] Sani: It's a beautiful process. You should take credit for it. I don't care if it was somebody else who did it in a different way before. This is your thing. I think the biggest value from here, from all this is the silent ideas that get left on the board that would not even exist or come out of a person's head if it was done, like with the whole group from the get go, because every group, every herd has a leader.

There's always the loudest person in the room. And there are always people who just defer and will not say anything because there's someone else already talking and what did they think it's stupid and whatnot. And I think the value is in that idea bank that gets left behind that you can go to and maybe ideate from and get better ideas from that.

So can you give me an example of how this works? Give me some interesting stories about the process.

[00:14:30] Lucia: Yeah. So I use it with my own clients as well. So I come into a company and you are an external person, so you don't know what they know. And they probably have a lot of information about their products, stuff they, researched or already learned. So it's not only a great, I, a great way to, mine ideas, to find ideas of everyone.

But for me, it's also a great way to become aware of, the ideas that are already living in an organization. And when you talk about ideation and, the conscience of groups and of companies. There are certain ideas that everyone knows hey, we all want to do this, but we're not doing it yet.

And those are sometimes the ideas that me as an external person also doesn't know. So then I'll realize that. So that's another method you can use. But next to that, I think, The most, the thing that this process does the most is adding this step where someone ideates by themselves. And that's weird because you're in a group and you want to be social and la la la.

So that's really the key factor that sets it apart. And I think why I love it so much personally is because, I've been, the silent intern, I've been the only, female in the room. I've been the youngest in the room. I've been, I've been not speaking out, in those, in those settings most of the time until I started a B testing and suddenly I had data and suddenly people would listen to me.

And I even took myself serious. So that was a great shift, but I think that helped me vouch for the introvert, the intern, all the time. Not to say that I'm against hippos or that I'm against managers because they should also be there. They also have great ideas, but I just wish for everyone's idea, everyone's solutions to be out there because they're all valuable. 

[00:16:30] Sani: Episode six of the season, we mentioned hippos in every single one and it wasn't even planned in, in, in any of the episodes, but I think the hippos they know stuff you don't know when you're a consultant, treat them as someone , who can teach you and not like the enemy who's going to stop your brightest idea that's about to save the world because let's be honest, There's stuff you as a consultant, as a CRO person probably don't know better than they do.

And that just should be that kind of humble approach in doing CRO and optimization, especially coming into an organization, they already know things.

[00:17:05] Lucia: Yeah. And you know, we have this, uh, I don't know if you know that there is this pyramid that is like the, um, the hierarchy of

[00:17:14] Sani: All right. Evidence. Yes.

[00:17:15] Lucia: You know, it's a pyramid in the bottom, it's expert opinion. That's, you know, sometimes it's the best you can have what you start with. And that's usually what managers have.

And then, you know, on top you get, if you want to increase and less biases, you get UX research, A B testing, all that stuff. But the foundation is still expert opinion. Uh, it's, it's maybe the, the, the social construct and the hierarchy and all those dynamics that we have to work with as well.

[00:17:43] Sani: A hundred percent. And it goes beyond just the opinion. Like the, the hippo, let's call them hippos. Let's just keep calling them hippos because maybe it works for SEO and people search for hippos, they'll find this podcast now, who knows? But let's, that person is not just opinion. They have knowledge that you're not aware of.

So it goes beyond just your opinion. It helps you form your opinion on something or, or. Create a strategy that if you don't have this data and this information would be different. It kind of goes back to one, two, four, all framework, because everyone's idea needs to be like the, like a puzzle set, you spill it onto the table and then you find what you need to use and what you want to use so. What are some of the key strategies when you're scaling an experimentation program for an organization and how do you include diversity 

[00:18:30] Lucia: think, um, of course there is process. If you want to increase velocity, you want to automate stuff, you want to have a process that you can do things as quickly as possible. Be smart about it. And there's a lot of ways to improve that. I know. Tons of tricks, but it's not necessarily my specialty.

But of course, what diversity does is it does add ideas. And this is also what people fear in a way, because the, what I hear the most, if I say to people, Hey, let's, um, try to get everyone's idea or solution to this specific thing. They are like, whoa, whoa, whoa, that's going to be way too many ideas and how are we going to deal with them?

And we're going to have to say no to everyone. And we don't want that. Um, plus there is this myth that it's either like you have one great idea, uh, versus you have a ton of ideas, but they are all shitty. So there is this myth that, you know, if you have one idea, then it will be good versus if you have a lot of ideas and you work on a lot of things that will be bad.

But this is actually not the case. From my experience, and I do know some other people that, that have the same experience. In fact, if you come up, for example, with a hundred ideas, of course, there will be like one great idea in there. Uh, but there will be, you know, big solutions in there, small solutions.

There will be maybe small iterations or big things within a range of 100 solutions, 100 ideas, there, there is so many in there that there must be a winner in there. Wow. Versus if you only have one and you spend a lot of time, a lot of time, then you only have that one. And what if it loses?

then, you know, you only had that one.

[00:20:15] Sani: That's one element of it. What if it loses? But the other one is. What kind of an egomaniac do you need to be to think that the first try was the best option available? What kind of a mindset does it take to think, okay, I tried once. There's no way this can be better. And I think this is against staying humble and why being humble whenever trying to optimize something is probably the way to go, because what, however good the result is, it could have been better.

Like there's no way you hit that 100 percent mark. It always could have been better 

[00:20:50] Lucia: so there is something that, uh, in the writing world, we call the shiny new idea syndrome. It's whenever, you know, you get that new idea and you think like, Whoa, that's amazing. And this is going to be it. And this is, you know, And I think that happens with CRO too and with A B testing too, that sometimes you think of an idea and you're super excited.

You feel good. Uh, other people are also drawn to that. Um, so maybe this shiny new idea syndrome is a little bit in our way as well sometimes. , but if you stay humble and you kind of force yourself to think like, okay, but what if I make another variant? What if I make it smaller?

What if I make it bigger? What if I do it? In a totally different way. Then you already have five solutions or variants, of course. So then, you have to kind of force yourself to go a little bit further than, just to the shiny bright new idea. Um, and I'm not sure if you're familiar with this, but I think it's a nice concept to think about.

[00:21:53] Sani: I think the parallel is amazing. And now you're killing the analogy as well. You're taking my crown. I love that, but you know about writing, so I'll give you this one. Let's do a rapid fire section. I have a few questions, no more than 10 to 20 seconds on each one. And even I haven't read them in, in weeks, so I don't even know what they're going to be.

And then we're going to talk about applying experimentation in real life. We'll talk about the writing, karate and all of the other incredible things that you have been doing, so what is the one digital tool you cannot live without question one?

Evernote

[00:22:30] Lucia: Yeah, I love Evernote. I just quickly go there to write down thoughts or like quotes from other people, books, podcasts. It's like really my go to extra brain and I know other people have much fancier programs, but I think Evernote is it for me.

[00:22:45] Sani: it's Apple notes for me to do that same thing. So I'm, even more, simple in that sense.

[00:22:50] Lucia: I think, right?

[00:22:51] Sani: It's free.

[00:22:52] Lucia: It's free, yeah, because Evernote got paid and then I was like, but I had to do it.

[00:22:57] Sani: What's your favorite book or podcast that's influenced your work?

[00:23:01] Lucia: Oh my gosh, this is too hard of a question. I think each book and each podcast you take with you, right? You take with you in your life and maybe it's just a little piece or a word or a sentence.

And then whatever you create yourself after that is always kind of the response maybe to that. Or, you know, whatever 

[00:23:21] Sani: I'll take that. That's a good answer. That's a good answer. What's the best piece of advice you have received in your career?

[00:23:26] Lucia: Why are these questions so hard? I have received, luckily, many pieces of advice, but I think at one point I stopped listening to other people's advices and that was maybe the best thing for me because before I was very insecure and then I was always looking for other people to tell me what to do, how to do it, what is the best way.

And then at one moment I grew up a little bit and I thought, okay, I can of course gather all this information from other people, but I will decide myself what is the way. And I think that in the end helped me really to live true to my person as well. So it's not necessarily advice

[00:24:07] Sani: That that's no, no, no, that is the best. I have a followup, but I have one more rapid fire question. What is the one industry myth that you would like to have people stop believing ? CRO industry.

[00:24:17] Lucia: Oh my gosh, so many the hippo one, everyone is on it. Then we have the one big idea. That you spend a lot of time on, that we also spoke about, that's another myth. Uh, what else kind of myths we have? Um, maybe another myth is that brainstorms are amazing because we feel amazing because it's social.

And then it's, it's actually not. There is also a lot of research about that. So

[00:24:40] Sani: That's a good one. I'll take that. So my followup now, you talked about being insecure in the past and then you grew up, something clicked. I think there are a lot of people who feel. That insecurity, and maybe I should not be speaking now in a meeting, or, you know what I'm talking about.

I was like that too. I was very much an introvert. I was very, I wouldn't say scared, but if you're not asking me, like, you don't want me to say something. I think that that's what, what it comes down to. What was it that made it click for you? Hopefully this can help someone listening to the podcast. 

[00:25:13] Lucia: When I was writing a novel, I actually tried to gather a hundred rejections for that novel or for the work I wrote. Um, and I think it applies in many ways, but what it taught me was that, um, I can get used to receiving negative feedback and I'll survive. I think that's the first thing.

Then next to it, it made me produce something that I had to send out. And I said to myself, well, if they don't like it, fine, situation is not changed. But if there is one person out there that does like it, that it does resonate with, you know, that might be my win to get my book published.

Uh, so that's another thing. And then it is shipping things as well. And this is the same that you have to do with writing as maybe with A B testing as well. You have to constantly ship out tests. You cannot have a gap in your roadmap. It's, it's a waste of time. It's a waste of your program because you could have been running a test and maybe your competitor is running that test.

, so you need to be, always shipping ideas, solutions, variations, tests, All the time. So that's also, a way, to push yourself or you have to push your team or you have to push your organization to keep achieving that because that's not easy. 

[00:26:30] Sani: And even on a personal level, you have to still Keep shipping or pushing things out, whatever that is on your personal level. If you're not doing that, if you're not getting that feedback, when you push something out, your confidence level will not grow. It may stay the same over time. It will decline, I guess, because you're not really doing much, but the only way to be more confident is to push things out.

And there will be positive feedback. If you are, an introvert worried about what people will say, let's assume that this person will definitely do their homework and do the work that they're supposed to be doing. Because if you're just recklessly pushing things out and don't care about the feedback, you're not that person.

You're not stuck in that introvert cave, whatever it is. If you are that person, you should just try and, if you push something out, And the feedback is, Oh, you should have done this years ago. You kind of screwed up, but you live with that and move on. And don't make the same mistake when you push something out.

If the feedback is not, I'm quoting a friend here. If the feedback is not, Hey, this is kind of rough around the edges. You waited too long.

[00:27:36] Lucia: I was just thinking of a funny story. So I used to do a B testing at a, at a telco and I had a manager there and, you know, this manager would all the time evaluate how I was doing every quarter or something like that. And then at one point. Um, he said, yeah, you, for you to improve, for you to ever, you know, get a promotion or anything, you need to stop being an introvert and you need to become an extrovert.

And I was like,

[00:28:05] Sani: Press the

[00:28:05] Lucia: this, this is who I am, what are you talking about? Then he said, yeah, if you're in a group, you don't stand on the side of the group. You're gonna have to go in the middle, make noise. And that was exactly who he was, but it was not who I was. I was. So in the end, you will always struggle with this.

I think sometimes you do feel like, Hey, this thing that I want to say is important. I feel it. Like I, I get a little bit nervous or excited. And then I think like, Oh, I have to say something. I have to say something. And then if you don't, you're also like, I don't know. It feels a bit sad.

You don't have to say everything. You don't have to be there all the time, but just if you feel like you really have something to say, if you have really something to bring to the table, bring it because you are supposed to be there. I mean, you are here alive. You are in this company. They hired you for a reason.

Don't have to be there all the time screaming in the middle of the group or whatever, but be there when it matters. That might be the advice that I would give people starting out or shy, um, just be there. Sometimes when it matters to you and that's already enough. 

[00:29:14] Sani: That's great advice. Maybe like a few years from now, we get a listener who said, Hey, in October, 2024, I followed her advice. Look at me now. So listeners, I want to hear from you in 2027. I don't know. Let's see. Uh, you mentioned the 100 rejections and, novel writing process. Your experimentation principles from CRO, from your work, do they translate to writing at all?

[00:29:40] Lucia: I think so. I think everything you want to do high level looks a little bit alike. So in that sense, what I did with writing, what I did with karate, what I did with experimentation. is kind of the same. Like you start at the base, right? You have to learn the techniques. You have to learn how it works, how to write a book, how to set up a test, how to punch.

So that's where everyone starts. But then after a while, you get experience and you learn, and you're maybe at the top of your game. Maybe you're the best of the country. Who knows? Maybe you're the best of the world. But then how do you still keep on improving? And that is, kind of experimentation.

And sometimes it does come down to, in karate for example, moving your big toe a little bit differently. And that's gonna make a change! And that's crazy! But that's the same with A B testing sometimes. And I think the same with writing novels that, you know, sometimes just choosing that different word, or just, oh, having another variant of a sentence, or of a scene, or cutting it out completely.

That's what's gonna make a book worth it as well. When you start, it's not about attention to details. But eventually when you want to improve, it is about your big So being an inch different, um, and that is also what CRO is because if you're just starting a webshop and you know, it doesn't even, you know, he cannot even go through the checkout.

CRO is not going to help you. CRO is a top class sport. That's gonna make a webshop go from great to Even greater.

[00:31:20] Sani: But it's attention to details and knowing which details to focus on. And that's basically trying everything and seeing what makes most sense. One final question about applying these principles to real life. You have so many things going on I'm not even going to list them because we talked about a lot of them, but what are some of the principles that you apply to balancing things out and knowing when to focus on which one and shift your mindset from one to another?

[00:31:49] Lucia: Yeah, sometimes I introduce myself and then I don't even know where to start, because I'm such a weird box of things that a person can be, but I guess that's also the fun of it. Some people are very different, they're just like, hey, this is my thing and I stick to it. But for me, The fun is really in being adaptive and learning a lot of stuff and in a way, transitioning what I know from like writing or karate to experimentation and back.

And for me, that is creativity. When, worlds come together when they shouldn't come together or when maybe it doesn't even make sense, but that's sometimes, where something new exists. But if you ask me how to balance it, try to do what I like. And what I have passion for, because also, because there are so many things out there, you have to also select, of course, what you're going to do with your time.

Um, and you can do that throughout the day. You can say like, Hey, in the mornings, I always do this in the afternoons. I always do that. For example, when I founded women in experimentation, as first was just me, right? Eventually people, stepped up to help, but the work, it became bigger and bigger.

And eventually we had an online summit, but I would just plan like time box some hours in my week to do that. because if I wouldn't, and still, even if that gap in my calendar wouldn't be filled up by meetings or work, uh, maybe I would spend it. scrolling on social media, that's the danger, right?

So I think it's good to keep yourself sharp on what it is you really want to do with your work, with your life, and do that first. Um, so I always try to do whatever I want to do. Sounds very selfish, um, but I try to do that first and then later on I'll respond to people's emails. So I'll do that in the afternoon.

I'll try to have meetings in the afternoon, um, because otherwise, Maybe again, because we're social creatures, I, I will get distracted by the other people and I won't focus on the stuff that I have a passion about. And that what I think are the things I should do with my life and I should create or like introduce to the CRO world, like the one, two, four, all templates.

If you don't do that, I would have gotten lost. So I try to really focus and dedicate some time to myself and the projects that I work on. Otherwise. You probably lose it and that sucks.

[00:34:19] Sani: Yes. And from my personal experience, I've been, working from home, since 2009. So that's 15 years, 15 and a half years now, the appeal of not having structure in your life. When you, when you're employed like that, when you just work for yourself, it's huge. I'll stay in bed.

I'll do it later. I do. But the, The more structure you have, and the more of those time blocks you have, where this is time when this is getting done. If it's not getting done in this timeframe, it's never getting done. And that kind of responsibility to yourself, it pushes, it helps you move things forward.

Even if my biggest productivity hack on no hacks podcast, sharing this is, when you have a lot of work and you, you don't have a like work hours, you don't go to an office or whatever. Just limit your working hours to like six or seven hours a day, and then block out the non work time. You will be so much more productive in the six hours that you're working.

Then if you thought 9 AM, okay, I'll do it in the afternoon. I'll do it in the evening. I'll do it tomorrow. No, there's only six hours to get this done. And that way you become more efficient to do it faster. You, come up with better ways to do things in the end. This was such a great conversation.

I'm really, really happy you were a guest of this podcast. Finally, since it's such a, such a huge name in the CRO space. And I'll just repeat the main idea. The main message is that with experimentation with CRO, you want to test the ideas of the intern and the CEO and everyone in between, because that is the only way to really maximize, what your organization can do.

What is your final advice for people listening to this podcast? Someone entering CRO. As a career run away or is it something else?

[00:35:57] Lucia: No, don't run away. It's fun. Uh, and there are a lot of nice people in our,

[00:36:03] Sani: Oh, definitely

[00:36:04] Lucia: in our business, I would say. Um, no, so don't run away, stay, have a cup of coffee, uh, start with the basics, start, you know, educating yourself about how everything works and In the beginning, it is good to have a beginner's mind.

And the beginner's mind is something that comes from, I think, Zen Buddhism, uh, where they, where they say the beginner's mind, whenever someone starts out is like a sponge. So you're like a sponge when you start out and you try to soak up all the knowledge that's out there. And that's great. And you have to, you have to go with it, try to learn as much as possible, listen to wonderful podcasts like these, uh, go do a course, go read a book, all those stuff.

And eventually, later on you have your own tactics, you have your own opinions, that comes later on. But just start somewhere. Even if, because sometimes people say, yeah, but I'm not in the opportunity to even run an A B test. Um, but you, you are in the opportunity to run an A B test.

How about maybe you build like a WordPress or you build a website quick and you try, I don't know, there are testing tools out there that have free trials or, you know, that you can use until a certain limit of users. Just go there and try it for your home build website. It doesn't matter if it sucks. It doesn't matter if it doesn't work But you're just learning you're just getting your I don't know hundred rejections.

Maybe like I did and It's just go with it. Just try.

[00:37:38] Sani: It should count even more than being in a, at a junior role in, in, in an agency or something like, if you have the initiative to, figure things out on your own, how I'm going to do this. Maybe you ask some people on LinkedIn that, that are smart and can help you. Uh, because people will in this industry, this is something that I've learned.

People will help others like that. That's just how it works. I love that. What is the best way for the audience to connect with you?

[00:38:02] Lucia: LinkedIn is a pretty good platform, to send me DMS or follow the work I've been doing. Of course, sometimes I speak at events or just come to me and we'll, we'll have a talk, but, I think LinkedIn, is the

[00:38:13] Sani: Wonderful. Uh, once again, thank you so much for doing this So to those of you who were listening to go to nohackspod. com slash follow. You can follow all the social channels and please share this episode with someone who is not aware of it, because if you enjoy it, I'm sure someone else will, so please do that the final question. What is the one key phrase or word you have for yourself six months from now? 

[00:38:34] Lucia: Have fun?