Embrace the Fear: Courage in Leadership and Experimentation with Luiza de Lange

In this episode of No Hacks podcast, we explore the concepts of fear, courage, and leadership with Luiza de Lange, a prominent figure in digital experimentation and CRO at LeoVegas. Luiza recounts her incredible journey of building in-house teams at major firms like Electrolux and Tele2 and working with a diverse array of clients at the award-winning agency, PrecisDigital.

Luiza discusses the importance of vulnerability in leadership, especially as a woman in a male-dominated industry like data analytics. She shares her experiences of making bold career transitions, traveling to 45 countries, and living in six, all driven by a blend of fear and courage. Luiza emphasizes the value of mentors and a supportive network, advocating for diversity and inclusion in the workplace.

Additionally, we explore how Luiza fosters a culture of experimentation, encouraging her teams to embrace failure as a learning opportunity. She shares tactics for motivating teams and ensuring everyone feels included and valued.

On a personal level, we talk about how an experimenter's mindset is applied outside of work, whether it's learning a new language, tackling fears like the fear of flying, or even engaging in activities such as gaming. Luiza's insights on leadership, self-awareness, and personal growth offer a compelling and inspiring message for anyone looking to overcome their fears and lead with courage.

Join us as we unpack Luiza's powerful message about leveraging fear and courage in both professional and personal realms, offering key takeaways that resonate beyond the workplace.

Experimentation Elite is on December 10th in London, get your ticket at experimentationelite.com and use code NOHACKS10 to save 10%

00:00 Welcome to No Hacks Podcast
00:45 Meet Luiza de Lange
01:13 Experimentation Elite
02:05 Luiza's Journey and Career Transitions
04:43 Embracing Fear and Courage
06:37 Mentorship and Networking
08:04 Fostering a Culture of Experimentation
12:38 Leadership Insights and Diversity
17:13 Applying Experimentation Mindset to Life
19:50 Travel and Personal Growth
24:48 Overcoming Fear of Flying
30:46 Final Thoughts and Takeaways

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Luiza: Courage is not the absence of fear. I think courage is the fear walking.

As individuals, we should be open to whatever comes our way. 

Leadership is all about discovering yourself.

Being a woman in a male dominated area, which, analytics and working with data is, is vulnerable from the get go already. And then trying to be vulnerable, which you need to do as a leader, that takes courage. 



[00:00:36] Sani: Welcome to a new episode of No Hacks podcast, where we explore the ins and outs of optimization, whether it's for your online presence or personal habits. Today, I'm excited to welcome Luiza de Lange, a leader in digital experimentation and CRO. Over her 12 year career, Luiza has built in house teams at Electrolux and Teletwo and advised multiple clients on behalf of the award winning digital agency, Precis Digital.

She's currently heading the CRO team at Leo Vegas. Luiza is also a champion for diversity and inclusion in experimentation. We will explore her journey and her inspiring message about the roles of fear and courage in both work and life. But before we start the interview, I want to tell you about experimentation elite.

Experimentation elite is the UK's premier experimentation and conversion rate optimization event. Next edition is taking place in London on December 10th. If you go to experimentation elite. com, you can find all the information you need, but also get your ticket. And if you use promo code, nohacks10, you can get 10 percent off.

I'm not making any money doing this, but you could save some money. So go to experimentation elite. com and get your ticket. Luiza, you will also be there, right? Welcome to the podcast.

[00:01:41] Luiza: Yes, thanks so much for having me. Yes, I will be there. And, uh, I'm really looking forward to that edition.

[00:01:47] Sani: So great to have you on. Is this your first elite? great to have you on 

[00:01:51] Luiza: It is. Yeah, it actually is. So I'm, I'm excited to see that format. I've been to many conferences, obviously, but, uh, I haven't been to experimentation elite yet.

[00:02:01] Sani: Are you going to love it I was there this June and it was the highlight of my professional year.

I will not be there in December, unfortunately, but you are going to love it now, today we are talking about the roles, courage and fear play in experimentation and life. Yeah. And to give the audience a bit of a background information, you have, well, obviously you changed, uh, a lot of jobs, even before marketing it, you told me you had 20 different professions before studying digital marketing.

So we'll explore that. But then you changed from product to agency, back to product. You traveled to 45 countries. You lived in six, as you told me right before we started recording. How did courage and fear play a role in all those transitions?

[00:02:42] Luiza: I think it's a really good question. And, um, I think as individuals, we should be open to whatever comes our way. And as you mentioned, after nine years at Electrolux, um, I was approached by digital agency and I felt that it was this now or never moment. Um, so I was complacent. Uh, I climbed the ranks of a large organization.

And don't get me wrong. I'm, I'm very grateful for my experience and possibilities, uh, at Electrolux. But after nine years there and being the one on the team with most experience that everyone was turning to with questions, I just became this. Negative Nancy and, and I think it was a sign to, to move on, uh, and it was definitely risky to go away from a very comfortable position that I had at Electrolux, but I was hungry for more experience, uh, for a different experience.

And, uh, all I knew at the time was, uh, what, how we did things at Electrolux. And, uh, and I wanted to see how other businesses, uh, approach digital analytics.

[00:03:51] Sani: You don't regret it I would assume 

You don't regret it I would assume 

[00:03:56] Luiza: I think it was the right decision.

[00:03:58] Sani: good And you also you you moved to 

you told me the countries before we started. You're from Poland, you live in Sweden, uh, you Netherlands, France, U S and UK.

I think my solid.

[00:04:11] Luiza: Yes, correct.

[00:04:12] Sani: You moved to a new country five times basically.

And Moving once to a new country where you don't know anyone or barely know anyone can be a traumatic experience. It's a very stressful experience and I'm sure Well, we're both from Eastern Europe. There's a lot of people who, because of the economic situation or whatnot, historically wanted to leave, but a of those people just fear stops them.

And they say, okay, I'll stay is safe. This is what I know. Did you go through any of that fear telling you not to do it?

[00:04:43] Luiza: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I don't see fear and courage as something that is opposite to each other. I think, um, they kind of fuel each other in a way. So reflecting on this, I still remember the feedback that I received from my first working experience from John Grant when I was, at the time I was living and working in London for sustainability startup.

And he said that he actually described me as fearless, that this kind of person throw yourself into anything and get it done. And it stuck with me, uh, because I think it's a pretty accurate description. But as I mentioned, I think courage is not the absence of fear. I think courage is the fear walking.

So feeling that fear, but pushing yourself through it and doing it anyway. I think we should take every opportunity we get. sometimes you, you don't really know, if what you're working on currently will lead anywhere. Uh, so I think there's a lot of this hesitation, fear and moments where you ask yourself, you know, should, should I be, should I keep chasing it, uh, even if it leads nowhere.

so you can only continue working hard and doing your best and hoping that this positive energy that you emanate, that at some point it will come back to you in the future. 

[00:06:05] Sani: You have to keep pushing, like you have to do the boring work and the work you don't want to be doing. If you want to have over a long period of time, if you want to get any kind of meaningful results, like that, that's really the basic idea of this podcast. I love that you said that. You, you went you said, 20 different professions and, and then a lot of different positions within CRO and experimentation. the one mentorship advice you got either like or an unofficial mentor that really helped you most along the way. 

[00:06:37] Luiza: I think when it comes to mentors. I haven't actually had that many in my career, and it was only recently that I started appreciating mentorship more. So I definitely would start just by saying, do reach out and, and go and find out a mentor because it's, it's in incre. Incredible how much that can help.

Um, but I think one of the advices that I receive from mentors is rely on your network and make sure that you're surrounded by people that. Lift you up. And I think that's that's very true, especially for our CRO community. It's the best community there is. Um, so I would say that's that's really important to put yourself out there and make sure that people know your name and know what you're working with because that opens so many different opportunities and you never know when you might need that helping hand.

Yeah.

[00:07:35] Sani: is exactly why I would suggest anyone to really work on network and not like would suggest just automate LinkedIn and do stuff. No, make

human connections with other people. Because. want to do that when you don't need the help, like you want to be the helping hand for others and it will pay back, like it will be returned to you.

Karma, call it whatever you want, but it will, it will come back to you. At least this is what I want to believe in my life and how I want to, how I try to live my life. That's really good. So, you have led experimentation teams at multiple companies, uh, tell Electrolux at, uh, Las Vegas.

How do you foster a culture where, uh, people are encouraged to embrace failure basically, and not have a fear of failure, because honestly, that that's what experimentation is all about. Not being afraid of failure. This is how you learn fast. So how do you, how do you make sure the culture is there?

[00:08:31] Luiza: I think the most important is that I let my team make their own mistakes and learn from them. I think this is, this is the core of it. I try to be an inclusive leader, ensuring that everyone has the same level of knowledge, uh, with a focus on communication and transparency. And I think maybe it could be described as these four C's.

So customer centric, curious, courageous, but also caring. I really do care about my team. Um, and I, I gave the team, my team now at Leo, and I joined a chance to be a part of shaping the strategy to define the direction that we're heading towards together. And maybe it sounds cliche, but I am, I am really inspired by, by my own team every single day.

And seeing them succeed in all the daily tasks that they do just pushes me to be even better for them. Um, and. Yeah, I think it's, uh, how I motivate them. It's also about learning about their motivational drivers as everyone is different, each individual gets triggered by different impulses. Uh, some want to have challenging tasks, uh, some like diversity of projects, uh, for some recognition and visibility is, is important or having growth opportunities.

So just learning about. What motivates them? I think that's important. And at the same time, of course, I make sure that we get the dose of outside inspiration by external upskilling or conferences. Attending conferences together can be also a nice boost off motivation. Inspiration.

[00:10:08] Sani: This is very interesting because often you hear about you want to the decision makers buy in. So whoever is a shareholder, you want to get buy in, but not that often people talk about buying from your team members and getting, making sure that they feel like they belong to something. I don't mean like a ping pong table and like a slide in the office and those kinds of things, really a sense of purpose to a team.

And that takes more time, but it's doable. Absolutely. I'm really happy to hear that this is what you're doing with your team. I mentioned failure and fear of failure. Can you give me one example, of how you or have turned a failure into interesting and exciting learning opportunity?

[00:10:51] Luiza: Yeah, so I think. One learning, as I would call it, would be the whole experiment of going onto the agency side. So I'm, I'm very grateful for the opportunity of working on the agency side, uh, with many clients and different business models from pure e commerce business, subscription model business, uh, to an NGO even.

And what I learned about myself from that experiment is, is what motivates me. Is improving digital experiences of consumers having that a direct impact, and I was missing that. That's obviously what experimentation is right, uh, tackling these consumer challenges in their experience and improving them.

Uh, and I was missing CRO in my role at Precis, where I was data strategy advisor, so it was more digital analytics focused. And that pushed me into the next opportunity of then working at tele two as a CRO lead, uh, and effectively spearheaded my career now and the specialists within the field.

[00:11:55] Sani: Right. about the leadership and, and making sure your team members are on board, do you have any tactics or any special ways to motivate your teams so they can embrace the risk and the desire to innovate? they're doing their job. 

[00:12:12] Luiza: I think, motivating them just by learning what their motivation triggers are, then making sure that, you know, we have this external doses of, uh, of inspiration from external upskilling or conferences, um, and, and yeah, effectively, uh, having them Participating in, in driving strategy.

Those would be like the things, um, to motivate the team.

[00:12:36] Sani: So that, that, those are the main ways you do it. Let's talk about leadership some more. What is your leadership hill that you're going to die on your leadership opinion? Whatever it is that you are going to stick to no matter what

[00:12:49] Luiza: Ooh, um, that's an interesting one. Leadership opinion that I will not change my mind on. I think leadership is all about discovering yourself actually. And, and self awareness. And that's something that. If you want to be a good leader, you need to look inwards into yourself and how you can improve based on the experiences and interactions you have with your team members.

So as much as it is about supporting and, um, and coaching your team members, it is very much about your self awareness and yourself

[00:13:29] Sani: That's a great answer. You're also known for, being a champion of diversity and inclusion in experimentation space. I was listening to a podcast you did, uh, for VWO, I think, uh, months ago. Now, why is and why is inclusion so important specifically in experimentation? 

[00:13:51] Luiza: I think being a woman in a male dominated area, which, you know, analytics and working with data is, is vulnerable from the get go already. And then trying to be vulnerable, which you need to do as a leader, um, in that position that takes courage. I think that's why it's, um, it's so important. And to be honest, that's also why I'm doing all of this, why I'm doing the conferences, why I'm doing the podcast and trying to spread the word out there is because after first kind of presentation that I made to students, the feedback that I received is that inspired other young women that are working with digital analytics because they could see where they can get in a couple of years time.

And I didn't even realize that at that time, how much it matters, how much representation matters. It's something that motivates me and just getting that feedback from, uh, fellow female, uh, experimenters out there. It's really, satisfying. And I really love the initiative that Lucia and Daphne created with, um, You know, women in experimentation.

I think that's a fantastic way to strengthen that female part of the community.

[00:15:08] Sani: Oh, absolutely. And what you said there, it's, it's not about what you said speaker slots with women. It's about inspiring the next generation. So we don't have a problem to fix at a conference level where it does like eight male and two female speakers. And we need to make that even for me, that is sure.

You'd need to do that as well, but that is not fixing the problem. That's just putting a bandaid on, on what, what is an ongoing problem that you'll have five years from now, 10 years from now, what, what you just said there. Inspiring and showing them, showing them, this is what is possible for you. That is the way that's literally how it should be done,

[00:15:46] Luiza: And I think some conferences do it better than others. I think what I noticed is whenever the conference organizers actually pay attention to these things, it gets better. So, uh, one great example is, uh, Measure Camp Stockholm. I think Chris and the team have done excellent job there over the years. Um, so I think they actually get more or less, uh, 50, 50 representation now of, uh, of attendees between, uh, sexes.

[00:16:14] Sani: And that's how it should be. if we achieve that we don't have to interfere with, it's just there. That's the society you want to live in. Taking steps to help that happen. Like women in experimentation. They're not just doing a one day conference to, to show that there's women who do experimentation, they're trying to create waves of new women coming into experimentation.

And for me, I'm a man, I don't know. I don't know this thing. I don't experience things the same way. I'm, I try to understand it, but I will never experience, like, I never had those problems if, if I'm being

[00:16:50] Luiza: Do you know that makes a difference. So I appreciate you taking up the topic. That's, that's really how you guys can contribute to, to this most 

[00:17:02] Sani: And from what I've seen, men want diversity as well. Who wins if it's the same person speaking in every speaker slot, it's just terrible for the industry longterm. So let's talk about the second part of this podcast. It's not work related.

This is about applying that experimenter mindset and courage and fear to beyond work to your personal life. Let's talk about experimenters mindset first. I kind of wanted to make that a sub theme of this entire season of 10 episodes. What is experimental mindset for you and how does it affect or help your day to day life?

[00:17:38] Luiza: Yeah, I think, uh, you know, the longer I am a part of this community, the more I observed that we as experimenters, we optimize. Everything, absolutely everything from our health. If you look at what Daphne talks at conferences and I'm sure all of us, uh, we improve our personal relationships.

Whether that is with our friends, with our partners or family, um, we improve conferences and hats off to Ton for optimizing the heck out of conversion hotel. Um, but then also even optimizing podcasts with yourself. I see some optimization going on here as well.

[00:18:18] Sani: And it's not just, uh, it's experimentation as well The reason I split it into shorter is because I can have an experiment that's running and ending, and then I could try something else and something else and something else. I don't want to be bored. I want to make it as good as I can, but also I want to enjoy doing it.

Sorry. I interrupted you there.

[00:18:36] Luiza: no, no worries. I mean, just to answer your question, I think. Uh, this experimentalist mindset pushed me to learn Swedish, you know, I've, I've lived in Sweden for eight years and I couldn't. say out a sentence. So, um, coming back to what we talked about, um, and being vulnerable, you know, I was afraid of being vulnerable in a leadership position.

And as a woman, I think that's really a lot to take on. Um, when maybe when you're younger, you know, you don't have that much to lose, but when you're already in a leadership position and as a woman within male dominated industry, you don't want to put yourself out there. It's really scary. And, um, you know, I did it, uh, I did two years at school.

I pushed through it. It was three times a week, uh, after work. So it was tough as well. Um, and caused a lot of funny situations when I put myself out there and was vulnerable and I was trying to speak now this third or fourth language. Um, but now I can communicate in the language. I'm not fluent, uh, but I go by.

And, uh, I think that's really all I wanted to achieve. yeah. 

[00:19:48] Sani: Good for you. Back 

to your personal life, you've traveled to

45 countries. That that's a lot, like no matter how you look, of course, there's globe trotters that just have a goal of visiting every single country. But 45 is a lot. Was there at least one and let's not, let's not cause any, uh, any scandals or discussion online.

What was there at least one that you were afraid to go to?

[00:20:11] Luiza: Oh, yes, definitely. I mean And 

[00:20:15] Sani: without naming the country, please, I don't want to start a war.

[00:20:19] Luiza: I mean, I don't think it's about the country itself. It's, you know, traveling sometimes you're, you get anxious traveling. Um, I mean, I was terrified when I was about to go to us, I was 20 at the time. Um, I almost, I had a panic attack the night before. Um, you know, that was a very first flight I have ever taken in my life.

And that was across the Atlantic alone to a country that was very, very different from Poland. That was all I knew at the time. That took a lot of courage. But again, as I said, you know, it doesn't mean that I wasn't afraid. I was panicking, um, but you just push through that, fear. And that one year in US and one year in France that I did have been the best years of my life.

So I'm, I'm really glad that I went through that initial fear. I think if that stopped me from doing it, I would, I would regret it.

[00:21:19] Sani: I'm pretty sure you would. And that one year I'm pretty sure you France, it's not just that one year, like the rest of your life. Is formed by, by that experience. Like this is why if talking about travel, like people who don't travel, who just say, ah, country is good enough. I don't want to go anywhere.

I kind of feel bad for them because until you experience another way to live and back to optimizers, you don't know if you, what you're doing is good or bad or like, whatever. that you shared that you love doing is playing video games. 

[00:21:54] Luiza: Yes 

[00:21:55] Sani: courage. There's no fear about playing. Maybe, maybe you should be less and then you break, you have courage to continue playing when you shouldn't, but let's not talk about that. How does playing games help you in your professional life with taking risk or solving problems? 

[00:22:12] Luiza: I think there's also a lot of elemental fear in gaming as well. I am terrified whenever there is a boss in the game, uh, and that I have to fight. So that, those are not enjoyable moments for me. Uh, but if you even think about Tomb Raider, You know, my favorite edition is, is five.

I don't know for those that, that have gone through all, uh, every part of it. Uh, but it was so full of clues and these puzzles that one had to solve. I really liked that part of the game where you had to think to actually, you know, move forward. So just that, you know, it trains your, uh, problem solving, capabilities.

But even, you know, things like staying calm when the challenge arises, you know, all these things you can learn from gaming, not to mention all the English vocabulary that you get also, uh, as not a native speaker while, while playing games,

[00:23:10] Sani: I'm a Nintendo Switch person. I don't know about fear and courage in playing games. It's just fun, for me. In Super Mario Kart, there's no fear. There's nothing to, there's no boogeyman to jump out and scare you, there's nothing like that, so Yeah, but that was very interesting.

Uh, I did play Tomb Raider 1,

years years and years ago on my PC.

[00:23:28] Luiza: Even if you think about the old games, like think about Age of Empires, when someone would invite you or Prince of Persia, where you had to fight with this funny knife, you know, like there was always element of fear. I think that's what keeps the game engaging. I think there's no challenge in the game.

It's hard for it to be engaging.

[00:23:47] Sani: That's a very good point actually You know what 

Super Mario, but not, not kart, there's an element of fear when doing a speedrun, that you're gonna

[00:23:55] Luiza: There you go. Or like all these turtles or that come out, right? Like that's, you know,

[00:24:02] Sani: that's exactly what it is Let's talk more a bit more about, uh, fear outside of work situation. So we talked about travel and going to a different country. I know how that feels. I did it while I was in the U S for a while, I was in Sweden for a while. Long while I'm now in Portugal, I'm from

I don't even know who I am anymore. If it, well, neither do you, I'm sure in that sense. 

[00:24:23] Luiza: Yes 

[00:24:24] Sani: how 

[00:24:24] Luiza: I think that's nice

[00:24:25] Sani: time. It's like, ah, I'm used to like, it's like.

you have a warm sofa and you need to

used to like it's like you like, and you do that every time.

But it takes a lot longer than five minutes to warm a sofa. Give me some more fear. Related or and courage related situation in your real life that you had to face and how you overcame them and how they made your life better in the long run.

[00:24:48] Luiza: Yeah, I think, of course, there's, there's a lot of these, um, you know, I face fear every single day, bigger or smaller. Um, but if we go back to traveling, uh, when I started flying. I actually really enjoyed it at the beginning. Uh, I thought it was this bizarre feeling when you enter the plane in one state in us and you, after a couple of hours are on the other side of the world.

Um, and, um, unfortunately after around five years, I started being afraid of flying and that was to the level where it was really not fun, especially with the amount of traveling that I did back then. It was really bad. Um, so I, I wasn't able to relax on the plane at all. Uh, I was constantly watching people moving, what were they doing and imagining these worst case scenarios, and it's, it honestly has taken me some time to tame it and, and calm it down. And I remember, uh, still like yesterday, the conversation I had with one friend about this, and she said that she had a similar experience. And it was all about letting go of control. And I thought she was onto something because she explained to me that the turbulences are natural and that the sooner you kind of accept that you are out of control in this situation and that it's the pilot's job to fly the plane.

It's not your job to, you know, take care of security, the better. And I think that conversation, um, you You know, since then I've, I've been practicing the art of letting go, uh, and it's been better and better. Uh, I think it especially helps flying with my husband. Uh, I always feel safe around him. Uh, but it even led to the point where now I'm again, enjoying flying.

I don't stress too much about it. I can actually read a book and, you know, without all this, um, kind of horrifying, uh, scenes.

[00:26:46] Sani: So it was just that conversation with your friend that that got you out of fear or was it a bit more work than that friend that?

[00:26:52] Luiza: I think sometimes that's all it takes to change your perception of things, you know, sometimes, and that's what I love about talking to other people about conferences. You take a step back and you reflect on what it is that you're doing and how you're doing things. That's self reflection, self awareness, and sometimes that's really all it takes.

Just look from another point of view, and that's where the solution comes from.

[00:27:18] Sani: That's a wonderful answer. That artful thing of letting and just realizing this is, this is not something I go and just flying the plane like that.

Like you said, one really good way. So say someone is listening to this and they have a situation in their where. not talk about moving to another country again, but maybe they want to, Find a better job. They're afraid that they're at a job that is great, but not bad enough for them to run away.

And they're afraid if we lose this, I'll never find something else. How would you approach something like that? 

[00:27:49] Luiza: Currently, especially in the, in the, this situation in the market where a lot of people are being let go particularly in Sweden, it's, it's not the greatest moment, I would say on the job market. I understand that fear. I mean, it's every time. It's the same.

And especially in Sweden, it's quite common when you start a new contract to have this probation period. So it doesn't matter if you work 10, 12 years, you still have the six months of probation period that you have to go through. Now, on the other hand, in Sweden, we are very lucky because we have this.

Safety caution of insurance, right? So when you become unemployed, still up to 80 percent of your salary is being paid at least for the first three months. So you don't become as in us, you know, you lose your job. That's it. Like you don't have money the next month to pay the rent. So I think in Sweden, it's, I love this about Sweden.

Um, it's really comfortable to have that security. Um, but I understand, it's always a risk that you take when you're changing your job. It's you, you go away from comfortable to uncomfortable, uh, getting to know new people and new processes, uh, new clients, if that's the case, new learning, new industry, like I'm doing right now.

It's a lot of new, but instead of. You know, dreading it, you can approach it as taking inspiration and energy from that. So that's, that's why I love traveling to new places. It gives you that injection of energy and it's the same as learning a new thing. When you just explore new environment and you look at new culture.

Um, yeah, you get inspired. You get new motivation and to go back to your routine life, so to say. Um, and you can, yeah, kind of have that positive mindset about it.

[00:29:33] Sani: Exactly All of that just enhances your routine life Did you go Exactly All of that just enhances your routine life Did you every time, no matter what the experience, even if it's a bad experience, it, it, well, you choose if it's going to make you better or worse, but it's your choice. always is your choice how you want something to affect your It It could be a horrible situation. I mean, is a man search for meaning by Viktor Frankl. If you haven't read that book, you and everybody listening to this podcast, it's, it's like this big, it's smaller than don't make me think. That's how small it is. And that's a tiny It's amazing. And it's about literally, uh, are in control of how you respond and react to things.

You always will be. No one will ever be able to take that away from you. Yes, job market, uh, it's, it, it is terrible, but let's say it'll get better soon, fingers crossed that it gets better. People, even, even when it's good, even when the job market is good, there's always the fear of what if it's worse? the same it could be worse It could be way better. And usually it's up to you to, to

to the situation in a way that, that makes it better. And.

Usually in control of that. The key takeaway from this mess, as we're closing the episode, the key takeaway from this is courage is the fear walking, not the absence of fear.

You explained that already. I love that. This is a tattoo worthy phrase. In my opinion, it's really good. And people stick to that. afraid is not a bad thing. afraid letting that fear paralyze you and not doing anything about it is what you don't want to do. So,, Luiza, thank you so much.

I have one more question for you I'll just tell the audience, thank you for listening. , this was episode three of no hack season two. If you go to no hacks, pod. com slash follow, you will find all the social links there that you can follow.

Instagram, YouTube, uh, even Twitter. I don't know why, but even Twitter, LinkedIn, and Apple podcast, Spotify, everything is there. So nohackspot. com slash follow. And Luiza, for you, what is the one word or phrase you want to say to yourself six months from now?

[00:31:39] Luiza: Just stay calm and enjoy the storm